malvae/ malvoides/ amoricanus?

[Reverdin]

anyone care to offer an opinion on ID for this.. same smallish pyrgus in the Haute Savoie on 6/7/11.. ups & uns...

upperside

underside

I may, or may not have already asked, but since I labelled it as malvae, I'm not so sure all of a sudden, the underside looks a bit amoricanus now
'

[Padfield]

I'd say you can rule out malvae/malvoides (shape of central spot and the size of the spots below it, which are typically small or absent in malvae/malvoides). It looks good for armoricanus.

Guy

[Reverdin]

That's excellent, thanks Guy... my only other amoricanus photo was of a well beat up old one... I was going to post this in the best Grizzly photo thread, glad I didn't now

[Padfield]

Roger is the last word on Pyrgus! See if he agrees.

Guy

[Roger Gibbons]

Nice to have an upper and underside view!

I agree with armoricanus. The upperside white marks look right even if the ground colour is rather a strong dark brown (many of the armoricanus I see have a greyish feel) although there is a basal flush, often indicative of armoricanus. A view of the hindwing would probably have been conclusive.

The underside looks right in several respects: the ground colour, the pronounce veins, the marginal s2 mark (a little vague, but the right basic shape), the discal mark in s4/5, the discal s2 spot, the basal s7 mark being rather squarish. These all point to armoricanus, and just as importantly, preclude most other contenders.

Please don’t think I am an expert in this field. I am struggling along with everyone else, but I have studied a lot of Pyrgus. I made a point this year of taking photos of upper and undersides of many Pyrgus and I have yet to analyse them. I am in the process of updating my web site and have completed the pages for Skippers if anyone is interested. There are some I have doubts about (23787 on armoricanus page is onopordi? 1545 on alveus page is armoricanus?) and will study them all in detail in due course. Any comments are welcome.

[Reverdin]

Hi Roger and thanks a million to both of you... expertise is all relative.... and you both are TOO modest, I wonder just how many people out there could be better.... not more than a handful out of the billions of earthly inhabitants... I think therefore "expert" is lacking in many things.... maybe "guru" would be better...

and PS... that does sound rather sycophantic... wasn't trying to be

PPS... I did examine your Pyrgus site Roger and that was what prompted me to ask here.... so many times I put something up and get "malvae.... sigh" the latter from both me and the responder!!... I have already found it really helpful, and will dip in and out over the winter as I go through this year's crop of photos again.

[Reverdin]

Here's a little something I put together... should be an easy enough challenge for some.... ID's should all be different...

Pyrgi

[Padfield]

Interesting!

Here are my guesses:

1 armoricanus (with a small option on cirsii)_______________2 carlinae

3 malvae/malvoides___________________________________4 onopordi

5 alveus ____________________________________________6 serratulae

I'm by no means certain on all those (though I am on some) - but no further comment until someone else has had a go!

Guy

[Roger Gibbons]

I agree on all six. Reasonably confident on 1 (this was in the earlier post), 3, 4, 6.

Some doubts on 2, an outside bet serratulae, but much more reason to believe it is carlinae.

6 less confident, but alveus is usually the result when all others have been eliminated. I have no idea whether it could be Foulquieri other than that it is highly unlikely on the grounds of scarcity (the width of discal s1 and discal s4/5 may be pointers, though). The white rectangle on marginal v5 looks promising for carlinae but there are perhaps more reasons why not carlinae.

I don't suppose you have the uppersides?

Having just realised that Reverdin is the reincarnation of a man who makes exceedingly good cakes.

Roger

[Padfield]

... 6 less confident, but alveus is usually the result when all others have been eliminated.

Just to clarify - you do mean 5 don't you?

... just realised that Reverdin is the reincarnation of a man who makes exceedingly good cakes.

Guy

[Reverdin]

Right... 1-Top left is agreed amoricanus from above replies ( one could say exceedingly pleased with that result)
2-Top right is one from a pile of s**t by the river near samoens, July this year.. I have it as alveus as it was a big b****r
3-Middle left is easy as it was taken in the UK
4-Middle right... onopordi from the Var this year, thanks to Roger,
5-Bottom left I have as carlinae, from the Cormet de Roseland in Savoie, early July a few years ago.. put it in just ‘cos it remains a query.. ups below
6-Bottom right is serratulae, taken with you Guy 2 years ago in June

carlinae ?

thought the comparisons were interesting.

(edit)... here is a glimpse of 2's upperside...

? alveus

[Roger Gibbons]

Yes, Guy, I did mean 5.

I mentioned carlinae for 5, although the discal s4/5 mark just looked too wide for carlinae and maybe suggested alveus. As is often the case with Pyrgus undersides, the evidence is conflicting and just does not add up to any clear conclusion. The upperside shot I feel confirms carlinae beyond any doubt.

For 2, I felt the v5 marginal mark just about met the carlinae requirement (slightly dubious, though) and the narrowish discal s4/5 mark suggested carlinae. The s1 discal bump is often slightly leaning inwardly in alveus and often non-leaning in carlinae and serratulae. I am not sure about the upperside, maybe the cell spot is within the bounds for carlinae, but I would need to see more of the upperside to be confident. I am not entirely convinced the two shots are of the same individual as there appear to be some differences.

[Reverdin]

sorry.. they are different on close inspection are't they... I really had them down as the same one... assumption is a dangerous thing -
I'd be quite happy to re-label as carlinae.

[Padfield]

In view of all the above, I agree 5 is carlinae. The underside is surprisingly greyish but the upperside is classic. I continue to think 2 is carlinae also, even though we only get a tantalising glimpse of the upperside of a different insect (which is probably the same species).

Alveus is very widespread and very variable, from warrenensis-type forms in the high Alps to brightly marked forms in central Spain and Italy. Every time I think I've got my head round this group I find new reasons to despair! Nevertheless, with constant practice, I think we're all getting better at it and I hope you'll continue to post challenges, Rev.

Guy

[Reverdin]

Thanks Guy.
Here's a (probably last of this season's) photo from up where the Cynthia's fly..... I have rather blindly assumed this to be alveus, but I wonder... sadly no underside apart from a similar tantalizing glimpse ...

and from the same place I think we were agreed on cacaliae..

From the environs of Mont Blanc came..
another cacaliae?.. but I have been told serratulae I think..

and alveus?

No undersides were obtained at all of these. I may well have posted these before.. apologies if you're sick of putting me right..