LOTSW II

[Padfield]

Did you get an underside of that turquoise blue, Nick? From the upperside it looks far more like green-underside blue. If someone did ID it formally then it's an interesting individual, with that tapering black border and the deep shade of blue.

For comparison:


(Green-underside, Switzerland, April 2011)


(Turquoise, Switzerland, April 2011)

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong - just that it's a surprising picture!!

Guy

[NickB]

Thanks Guy. It was when we were with RogerG in Rimplas. I just took a picture of what he thought could be a Turquoise Blue...
No uns... it flew away....
N

[Roger Gibbons]

The possible Turquoise Blue was at a spot where I had seen them before, but I was several metres away and the blue colour looked rather Turquoise-y. I just thought the photo should be checked in case. Having seen the photo, I would be fairly sure Guy is right.

Roger

[Roger Gibbons]

Re the LOTSW II trip report, I should mention that we met at 10.00 on the first day when the sky was black and rain tipping down. Our fearless trio had come to see butterflies and were not going to be deterred by the weather. Any weather. The ground was muddy and the grass soaking and just about all we saw was a roosting Baton Blue, a life tick (= first ever sighting) for all three. But a life tick is a life tick, even if we were likely to see Baton Blues in hundreds over the next seven days.

I strongly suspect they all got up at 2am to go back into the field and see if they missed anything. If the world was going to end in 30 minutes because of an approaching asteroid, I think I know which three people would be heading for the nearest flower meadow.

If they ever include butterfly photography in the Olympics (and I may be getting a little optimistic here), I already know who will be on the podium.

Of the eight days our trio were in Provence, the weather was mostly great except for the three days I was with them. Maybe a connection?

It was great to spend time with three guys whose enthusiasm and obvious enjoyment were boundless. Where for LOTSW III?

[Paul]

Kind words Roger, you were brilliant hosts.

Here are some of the skippers from the trip...

[NickB]

The possible Turquoise Blue was at a spot where I had seen them before, but I was several metres away and the blue colour looked rather Turquoise-y. I just thought the photo should be checked in case. Having seen the photo, I would be fairly sure Guy is right.
Roger

Has he ever been wrong
One off the Trip list, Roger?
Rimplas was not as advanced as the season was down nearer the coast....
...and our track had been recently "re-graded" by a JCB which did not add to the butterfly habitat....

[Padfield]

We've all been wrong, Nick, and I do NOT want people to respond with lists of all the times I've been forced to retract daft identifications!

As I understand it, you did have a female turquoise though, so it remains on the trip list (it's a triptych!), doesn't it?

You will be sad to learn, Nick, that a JCB has recently regraded the meadow right next to my house, removing the little tree with the nuthatches and nesting blue tits and replacing it with the foundations of two new houses. That view will never be the same again.

Guy

[NickB]

We've all been wrong, Nick, and I do NOT want people to respond with lists of all the times I've been forced to retract daft identifications!

As I understand it, you did have a female turquoise though, so it remains on the trip list (it's a triptych!), doesn't it?

You will be sad to learn, Nick, that a JCB has recently regraded the meadow right next to my house, removing the little tree with the nuthatches and nesting blue tits and replacing it with the foundations of two new houses. That view will never be the same again.

Guy

("it's a triptych" - I'll post the other two then )

[Paul]

That's really bad Guy

[Jack Harrison]

What a shame Guy.

Jack

[NickB]

That's really bad Guy

I do remember watching those blue-tits fly in and out feeding their young; a lovely moment

Having visited Switzerland and seen how species, even there, are on the verge of local (and in some cases), national or European extinction, such is the limit to their range and numbers, it shows how the plight of butterflies in particular is the same everywhere in Europe. Where traditional farming-based economies still exist (mainly in the older ex-Soviet Eastern European states and in some parts of Switzerland, for example), it is still possible to experience a large range of species of, sometimes, very rare butterflies in one place. Elsewhere, and even in those regions, much of the old woodland and farming management has ceased, or changed, to the detriment of many species of butterfly. And, that the pace of change is increasing, even in Switzerland. Switzerland too is growing, needs more houses and hotels, ski-slopes and runs, all to cope with our desire to experience their fabulous country, and provide homes and employment for young Swiss families, just the same as here. It Illustrates what is happening piecemeal everywhere, as small pieces of habitat are swallowed-up by " development"; no wonder wildlife everywhere is under such pressure
Is it time for the Militant Wing (pun intended ) of UKB to step forward?
So far, we have Foggy....

[NickB]

I strongly suspect they all got up at 2am* to go back into the field and see if they missed anything.

* No, we didn't. It was 4:00am....

[NickB]

Skipper of the trip has to be...
Edit: Not Rosy just the Grizzled Skipper...

Edit: malvae/malvoides

and the most numerous Frits were ...
Glanville...

and Marsh

Still a few Blues to sort out; I know I have another Chapman's somewhere....
Opinions on this one...

I think this is the underside...

N
Been up moth trapping ( moffs - 3 Poplar Hawks ) and waiting to join dawn-chorus walk in a few hours, so processing a few pics to stay awake! (They don't have an Smilie for "Yawning" ...)

edit: I couldn't resist another Green-underside Blue...

[Roger Gibbons]

The two Pyrgus: my reaction was exactly the same as yours, Guy. The first looked good for malvoides, as the discal spot is too narrow for anything else. The second did not look right for armoricanus, but rather odd for malvoides as well. If I am associating the upperside with underside #2, it is almost certainly malvoides. I am writing this offline, so relying on memory. I would need to study with all photos of both species from this region but I do not have them with me here. I will check out when back in the UK.

I thought Roger H had shown me a photo of a possible armoricanus ups and uns, the subject of an email a few days ago. That may throw some light on it. Just viewed LOTSW II page 4 and I suspect there may be armoricanus in there (NickB 8 May posted 02.11 – you see, they are still butterflying at 2am), the Signe de Blachier (discal s1 mark) does not look right for armoricanus, also Paul has an upperside forewing that looks distinctly pale dusted in the basal region. I am tapping away in a dark deserted bar so do not have the tools here, so over to Guy….

The photos have shown how widespread onopordi is in this region. If it is seen in April in this region and it is not malvoides, it is odds-on onopordi, not rare here at all.

I rarely see Pyrgus undersides as I am daft enough to go out mainly in the heat of the day and so usually only see uppersides.

The records for orion and triaria appear to be in new locations not recorded in the PACA atlas, also ballus at Signes. If you wish, I can give you the contact at OPIE for you to send these records (date, exact coordinates) to, so you can be listed as a contributor in the next edition. You found them so why not get the credit.

Roger

[Padfield]

Aha! One little-mentioned advantage of having a small, cheap camera is that you can sneak it underneath a skipper that is only a few inches off the ground even if the skipper really doesn't want its undersides photographed:



That one is armoricanus, incidentally.

I would find it useful to have the problematic individuals from the trip collected on one page, with ups and uns of the same insect together (and identified as such) wherever possible. At the moment, they're spread over several pages and not clearly marked (skpper 1 ups, skipper 1 uns &c.). That's not a criticism - it just makes identification a little harder.

The butterfly below Nick's statement that rosy grizzly was skipper of the holiday (which I'm sure is true) is clearly not a rosy grizzly to me!!

Pyrgus is a very difficult genus. Roger, we know, is making a special study of the species and I'm sure he'll agree with me that in the end these are butterflies you come to recognise, above all, even when you can't put your finger on how. I saw five Pyrgus species yesterday and only with one individual was there even any hesitation in coming to a confident identity (that one was a mutantly small carthami). Matt and I both cried 'armi!' at the same time when we saw our first armoricanus of the year settle, long before we'd had a chance to study it. The challenge is to get all these insights down in a form which those who don't see the species every day can use to identify individuals confidently. Big challenge. Roger's doing it for you!!

Guy

[Paul]

The orion was a definite... is the de Prunner's ID ok ? ( see back).... I think that will make it one for each of us for records..... Roger, would you PM me or email me the OPIE contact details?

Guy... I put my uncertainties in the Skippery customer bit on Identification... I think you responded to that but left question marks..... I think the others got better, more quisical skippers!! I'll have a search through again and if necessary post back into the ID forum.

[Padfield]

De Prunner's is a dead cert, Paul!

I'll go back to the skippery customers later!! Interesting there's no olive skipper there. Now I can 'do' Pyrgus I've discovered serratulae everywhere!

Guy

[Paul]

I was hoping for Olive, and hutned a likely skipper for ages... it is the brown, worn "malvae" on the more skippy customers bit!! not much olive though

[Paul]

Here are a couple of shots of our final home in the Alps-Maritimes.... takes me back, sigh,

and Roger, getting his eye in.....

[NickB]

Thanks Roger, Guy & Paul....
The question of malvae/malvoides in itself is
I do see now that the Rosy I posted as the Skipper of the trip is malvae/malvoides, (having also looked at Matt's on-line library) as I think is the other one 1m away. (..and I'm sure that somewhere amongst our shots we have an amoricanus, if only we could work-out which one!)
As you say, at the time, there is something that says, "I don't think I've seen that before", even if you can't quite put your finger on exactly what, when something flies by. Quite often too, it becomes apparent it is something you have already seen; others remain nagging doubts....like many of the Hesperiidae we saw.
N