Large Copper at Carr Vale, Derbyshire
Large Copper at Carr Vale, Derbyshire
The Rare Bird Alert Pager system is reporting several Large Copper at Carr Vale NR near Bolsover in Derbyshire at the moment.
Could anyone clarify what the status of Large Copper is in the UK? I assume these are the result of a re-introduction of some sort, either official or otherwise.
If anyone has details of where to look at Carr Vale I'd be interested. I might go and see them regardless of status anyway - there not too far away.
Thanks
Martyn
Could anyone clarify what the status of Large Copper is in the UK? I assume these are the result of a re-introduction of some sort, either official or otherwise.
If anyone has details of where to look at Carr Vale I'd be interested. I might go and see them regardless of status anyway - there not too far away.
Thanks
Martyn
- Pete Eeles
- Administrator & Stock Contributor
- Posts: 6869
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:10 pm
- Location: Thatcham, Berkshire
- Contact:
- alex mclennan
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:01 pm
- Location: Bedfordshire
- alex mclennan
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:01 pm
- Location: Bedfordshire
-
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:43 pm
- Location: WIRRAL
- alex mclennan
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:01 pm
- Location: Bedfordshire
David
Thank you. It's quite intriguing that there is such a detailed and informed butterfly discussion going on on a 'bird' site!! Mention is made there of the Woodwalton Fen reintroduction attempt. I believe that was abandoned as long ago as 1999. I think that there can be little doubt that this is an unauthorised, misguided and indeed illagal release of a very attractive butterfly.
Alex
Thank you. It's quite intriguing that there is such a detailed and informed butterfly discussion going on on a 'bird' site!! Mention is made there of the Woodwalton Fen reintroduction attempt. I believe that was abandoned as long ago as 1999. I think that there can be little doubt that this is an unauthorised, misguided and indeed illagal release of a very attractive butterfly.
Alex
-
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:43 pm
- Location: WIRRAL
Are there standards by which introduced species are deemed "tickable" to use birding language? The British list (of birds) excludes species which are non self-sustaining introductions or escapes - termed category E birds. It would seem that Large Copper would fall in the equivalent butterfly category (in the 20th and 21st centuries) as their populations have not been self sustaining. Similarly, are Large Blues considered to be self-sustaining?
david
david
- Pete Eeles
- Administrator & Stock Contributor
- Posts: 6869
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:10 pm
- Location: Thatcham, Berkshire
- Contact:
Hi David,
I suspect this is a highly subjective area, based on conversations I've had over the years. For some, any sighting represents a "tick" - including reintroductions. For others, that would be heresy!
But there are several reintroductions that are self-sustaining. For example, Heath Fritillary in Thrift Wood, or Large Blue (at various sites, to the point that the colony at Green Down has been used to recolonise other European sites).
The problem is knowing how far to stretch this! For example, the colony of Black Hairstreak at Monk's Wood in Cambridge, which was repopulated after the 2nd world war, is actually a reintroduction from a population that was originally removed from the wood!
I believe that the Large Copper is in the grey area between being self-sustaining and not. It survived for many years at Woodwalton Fen, but eventually disappeared.
My 2p.
Cheers,
- Pete
I suspect this is a highly subjective area, based on conversations I've had over the years. For some, any sighting represents a "tick" - including reintroductions. For others, that would be heresy!
But there are several reintroductions that are self-sustaining. For example, Heath Fritillary in Thrift Wood, or Large Blue (at various sites, to the point that the colony at Green Down has been used to recolonise other European sites).
The problem is knowing how far to stretch this! For example, the colony of Black Hairstreak at Monk's Wood in Cambridge, which was repopulated after the 2nd world war, is actually a reintroduction from a population that was originally removed from the wood!
I believe that the Large Copper is in the grey area between being self-sustaining and not. It survived for many years at Woodwalton Fen, but eventually disappeared.
My 2p.
Cheers,
- Pete
- Pete Eeles
- Administrator & Stock Contributor
- Posts: 6869
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:10 pm
- Location: Thatcham, Berkshire
- Contact:
- alex mclennan
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:01 pm
- Location: Bedfordshire
- Pete Eeles
- Administrator & Stock Contributor
- Posts: 6869
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:10 pm
- Location: Thatcham, Berkshire
- Contact:
Correct. But if the reintroduction at Woodwalton Fen had been successful, and they managed to expand their range, would that count? Don't know!
Anyway - the Derbyshire individuals aren't tickable in my book!
In fact, the British Large Copper was the subspecies dispar (Lycaena dispar dispar) which was an endemic subspecies - now lost forevermore
- Pete
Anyway - the Derbyshire individuals aren't tickable in my book!
In fact, the British Large Copper was the subspecies dispar (Lycaena dispar dispar) which was an endemic subspecies - now lost forevermore

- Pete
- alex mclennan
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:01 pm
- Location: Bedfordshire
Whilst I appreciate that these butterflies have absolutely no credentials and I condemn the actions of the individual who released them, I nevertheless went to Carr Vale this morning. I saw about a dozen of them, evenly split male and female. For what they are worth, I took these pics. The butterflies may be very 'iffy' but they are still very beautiful.





- alex mclennan
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:01 pm
- Location: Bedfordshire
Mark
They looked in excellent condition with a fair bit of life in them yet!! They are apparently very sedentary having stayed in the same place throughout and they are closely grouped. Once you reach the reserve find the sewage works (it's not difficult!) and they are on the lake side close by.
Alex
They looked in excellent condition with a fair bit of life in them yet!! They are apparently very sedentary having stayed in the same place throughout and they are closely grouped. Once you reach the reserve find the sewage works (it's not difficult!) and they are on the lake side close by.
Alex
In the Butterfly Conservation website there's talk of reintroduction attempts underway in and around Cambridgeshire and the Norfolk Broads. But there's nothing mentioned about Derbyshire, although I wonder about the planting of water dock. Are the people who run the reserves managing this attempt, I wonder?