www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

Sounds like you've got the balance just right, Gibster.

Susie wrote:Sounds like you've got the balance just right, Gibster.

Well...I also tend to kinda thump folk who are too vigorous in telling me what I can and can't do. So I'm not quite perfect yet!

Gibster wrote:

Susie wrote:Sounds like you've got the balance just right, Gibster.

Well...I also tend to kinda thump folk who are too vigorous in telling me what I can and can't do. So I'm not quite perfect yet!

Oh dear. I would say "Men!" but that would be sexist.

Kind words cost nothing but are worth a fortune

Hoisted on my own petard. Ouch!

Rogerdodge wrote:I think a goodly proportion of the actual "collectors" of old were actually pretty careless mercenaries. Tromping down to North Cornwall and collecting every living specimen of Large Blue, and hot-footing it back to London to sell thier booty to wealthy collectors. Charming. I think modern day photographers are a little better than that.

What you described were not collectors nor mercenaries. They were simply professional hunters just like the ones who almost wiped out the American buffalo. Buying specimen creates such a profession, which is the reason I don't accept that. Exchange can be just as bad when taken to extremes.

Rogerdodge wrote:I would like to know however - Do you collect set specimens yourself. Either caught and set by yourself or others?

That wasn't for me, but my pages won't leave much question, do they?

As I have a degree in Zoology and I self published a book on butterflies last year am I allowed to continue taking photographs of butterflies? Just wondering?

I think Susie had the policy in a nut shell, especially the sharing aspect...

Have a goodun
Wurzel

Nowhere did Felix say people couldn't take photos!

There was one point missed from my post re the code and it was touched on by Roger at the photographic forum and that is to enjoy yourself and enjoy the butterflies. Put down the camera occasionally and marvel in these magnificent creatures. It's a great feeling!

Taken to logical conclusions, we would all stay on the paths and not step anywhere where we might "trample" habitat. And I'm sure that is the attitude of many of those that manage places on our behalf would prefer. Older members will remember a song in which "they paved paradise and put up a parking lot"....and often in response to a site's popularity, more people visit and need more space to park, then comes the visitor centre, areas "closed off" to the "public" - unless you pay extra for the guided tour,etc, etc. until, it stops being what it was, and starts serving a different clientèle - the public, not the animals. Sadly, publicity (and the ability to raise money through parking and visitor charges) brings its own problems; one of which is, the tail starts to wag the dog. Far from encouraging and increasing access for the public, it is restricted and becomes more divisive, as those that are "members" or can afford to pay extra, get privileges above the general public, who seem to be viewed as "not to be trusted"...

Hence, I have sympathy with Gibster on this, since I too spend a lot of time out-in-the-field, carefully picking my way through habitat and walking in my own track as much as possible. I can't deny that I may leave a trail through long grass and vegetation sometimes and may have unknowingly damaged some eggs or larvae; but, given what would be trampling and browsing from animals, if they were present, I feel this does no more than the passage of a deer or wild-boar would have done. And I don't eat the grass, browse the trees and bushes, or dig-up the ground, either! Some trampling creates space for other plants to grow through and also micro-climates where butterflies can bask and other creatures thrive, so it is not all so dire as it seems to be made out.

But when hoards of people descend on a site, with no real sensitivity to the needs of the butterflies they want to photograph, where they nectar or lay their eggs, then that is not right, either. It is just as bad as the collectors we abhor - getting the picture at any cost - and also may inform why many people prefer to do their photography alone. They do not want to damage the areas they go to by being part of a social group; they want to understand the environments they are entering as habitat for different butterflies, to observe how they behave, where they lay their eggs, where they feed and bask and at what times, to learn and record what they see. Mostly just because of a deep affinity and fascination with nature, the simple beauty yet boundless complexity which it demonstrates, and to convey just some of that feeling through their images to others.

I feel that most members of UKB fall into the latter category and operate a sensible approach. I don't think we should beat ourselves up over it. In any case, "the guilty know who they are...".

There are far more damaging practices being operated in many of our Nature Reserves as we speak - browsing and mowing as methods of management for instance - where we could make a difference, as we are probably all members of these organisations. If we talked appropriate breeds - cows v sheep v horses - or maximum densities, or timing of browsing and mowing, mosaics and areas left untouched - and effected a national change to simply stop browsing at times when butterflies lay their eggs, or mowing when they are larvae, that would be a better use of our collective energies, I feel....
N

NickB wrote:But when hoards of people descend on a site, with no real sensitivity to the needs of the butterflies they want to photograph, where they nectar or lay their eggs, then that is not right, either. It is just as bad as the collectors we abhor - getting the picture at any cost - and also may inform why many people prefer to do their photography alone. They do not want to damage the areas they go to by being part of a social group; they want to understand the environments they are entering as habitat for different butterflies, to observe how they behave, where they lay their eggs, where they feed and bask and at what times, to learn and record what they see. Mostly just because of a deep affinity and fascination with nature, the simple beauty yet boundless complexity which it demonstrates, and to convey just some of that feeling through their images to others.

In your 1171 posts Nick, that's probably the best bit you have ever wrote.

Regards Gruditch

Not a bad hit rate then

Cheers mate!

I agree Gruditch. It was extremely well put and I agree whole heartedly.

I wish my local nature reserve would take heed and not mow 2 feet either side of the paths with a chain mower. The Cetti's Warblers may be 3 feet in from the path but soon they will be right on the edge. It makes no sense to pander to the general public who are mainly only there for a walk round. If the path is narrow they will walk elsewhere. Take heed Attenborough Nature Reserve Management PLEASE.

NickB wrote:Taken to logical conclusions, we would all stay on the paths and not step anywhere where we might "trample" habitat. And I'm sure that is the attitude of many of those that manage places on our behalf would prefer. Older members will remember a song in which "they paved paradise and put up a parking lot"....and often in response to a site's popularity, more people visit and need more space to park, then comes the visitor centre, areas "closed off" to the "public" - unless you pay extra for the guided tour,etc, etc. until, it stops being what it was, and starts serving a different clientèle - the public, not the animals. Sadly, publicity (and the ability to raise money through parking and visitor charges) brings its own problems; one of which is, the tail starts to wag the dog. Far from encouraging and increasing access for the public, it is restricted and becomes more divisive, as those that are "members" or can afford to pay extra, get privileges above the general public, who seem to be viewed as "not to be trusted"...

Hence, I have sympathy with Gibster on this, since I too spend a lot of time out-in-the-field, carefully picking my way through habitat and walking in my own track as much as possible. I can't deny that I may leave a trail through long grass and vegetation sometimes and may have unknowingly damaged some eggs or larvae; but, given what would be trampling and browsing from animals, if they were present, I feel this does no more than the passage of a deer or wild-boar would have done. And I don't eat the grass, browse the trees and bushes, or dig-up the ground, either! Some trampling creates space for other plants to grow through and also micro-climates where butterflies can bask and other creatures thrive, so it is not all so dire as it seems to be made out.

But when hoards of people descend on a site, with no real sensitivity to the needs of the butterflies they want to photograph, where they nectar or lay their eggs, then that is not right, either. It is just as bad as the collectors we abhor - getting the picture at any cost - and also may inform why many people prefer to do their photography alone. They do not want to damage the areas they go to by being part of a social group; they want to understand the environments they are entering as habitat for different butterflies, to observe how they behave, where they lay their eggs, where they feed and bask and at what times, to learn and record what they see. Mostly just because of a deep affinity and fascination with nature, the simple beauty yet boundless complexity which it demonstrates, and to convey just some of that feeling through their images to others.

I feel that most members of UKB fall into the latter category and operate a sensible approach. I don't think we should beat ourselves up over it. In any case, "the guilty know who they are...".

There are far more damaging practices being operated in many of our Nature Reserves as we speak - browsing and mowing as methods of management for instance - where we could make a difference, as we are probably all members of these organisations. If we talked appropriate breeds - cows v sheep v horses - or maximum densities, or timing of browsing and mowing, mosaics and areas left untouched - and effected a national change to simply stop browsing at times when butterflies lay their eggs, or mowing when they are larvae, that would be a better use of our collective energies, I feel....
N

Nick - thanks for bringing some sanity to the strangest thread I've ever witnessed on UKB, which I've been mulling over all day. My conclusion was this (not sure I need to say it, but I will anyway):

"No individual speaks for UK Butterflies" (and, by the way, that includes me).

In other words - anything that any member may read on these forums is the opinion of an individual unless it refers to a policy documented elsewhere. Yes - I think that needed to be said

I saw some nice butterflies today too. And moffs

Cheers,

- Pete

Pete Eeles wrote: "No individual speaks for UK Butterflies" (and, by the way, that includes me).
In other words - anything that any member may read on these forums is the opinion of an individual unless it refers to a policy documented elsewhere. Yes - I think that needed to be said
I saw some nice butterflies today too. And moffs
Cheers,
- Pete

Indeed, Pete! This forum does allow for a lot of different views to be aired, which can only be for the good!
I saw one or two today too!

I'm still upset because I do sometimes photograph road signs!

On my local patch there are things far more destructive than butterfly photographers: those that start fires on the common ground: those who drive quad bikes: the council that cuts down the 'weeds' at the wrong times (i.e. stinging nettle beds, reed beds as per Paul's post - we have Cetti's warblers too): those who drop rubbish (and sometimes truckfulls of rubbish, and sometimes following that with burning it). I think the odd 'putting a foot wrong' is a far smaller sin. Not that I recommend tramping willy-nilly into the undergrowth. I still wouldn't like place myself in a position to judge as to 'why' someone should visit a butterfly site. Yes, some will photograph butterflies, some will photograph with a tripod, some will just sit in the field watching, taking it in, and some will take notes, some will take transects, some will study scientifically to help data. As far as I'm concerned I guess (or hope) that most people that visit sites who are interested in Lepidoptera have a sensible approach. I don't like the idea of calling members of the site 'twitchers' just because they want to photograph and 'tick off' a species from a list. If that floats their boat then so be it. And on the whole I'm sure there's nothing wrong with 'twitchers' either! It was them after all that suggested a 'code' that started off this whole debate!

A public (or group of individuals) that is more aware or interested in butterflies has got to be a good thing generally. It brings more money into conservation. It makes people appreciate the landscape and more active in protecting it. Websites like this do encourage information exchange in a (mostly) healthy way. I hope

It's an intriguing question to ask 'why do you photograph a butterfly?', in the same way that you could say 'Why do you listen to Kate Bush?' (for example) the answer would probably be, 'why not?' followed quickly by 'mind your own business!' in the most polite way possible

Michaeljf wrote:I'm still upset because I do sometimes photograph road signs!

.. I sometimes combine the two... My guilty secret is out!

I do road signs too, and even shop signs on occasion.


(Inner city pollution... )

Guy

padfield wrote:I do road signs too, and even shop signs on occasion.


(Inner city pollution... )

Guy

Nice one, Guy!

Part of my own Code is to avoid at all costs anywhere where one is likely to encounter hordes of badly dressed middle-age men holding DSLRs

Michaeljf wrote:I'm still upset because I do sometimes photograph road signs!

I think there is some merit to this idea if only as a guide for beginners. When I started butterfly watching about 5 years ago I didn't know anything about larval foodplants or nectar sources and probably destroyed some when chasing whites through fields. Its only through reading and observation that one comes to understand the complexity of a butterflies life cycle and habitat requirements. These days I am more careful about where I put my feet and I dont chase butterflies after I have disturbed them a few times as they clearly dont want their picture taken
Although I am a photographer now I am not obsessed with snapping every butterfly I see. Its great fun to just sit and watch their behaviour for a while and I think some people forget that.

Jon

P.S. 50 people in a day at Collard Hill really isn't that many if you think about it. Over an 8 hour period it equates to 1 person every 10 minutes. I'll admit that if it was a coachload who all appeared at the same time it may have caused some issues!
Whats the thinking on dogs by the way? My dog accompanies me on all my trips except where they are forbidden (something which I always check beforehand).