Fritillary ID please

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Medard
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Fritillary ID please

Postby Medard » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:22 am

Help please, can someone identify this Fritillary seen near the summit of the Col du Négron Drôme,at a guess 40/45 mm wing span.
Moth for ID .Alps de Haute Provence, the moth had been ambushed by a crab spider.

http://jamesgibbs6929.zenfolio.com/
Attachments
MAY_7038  reduced..jpg
MAY_8341 reduced..jpg
MAY_8376  reduced..jpg
MAY_8366  reduced..jpg
JUN_8939.jpg

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Padfield
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Padfield » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:41 am

Hi. Your fritillary is a female meadow fritillary, Melitaea parthenoides.

Guy
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Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Paul Wetton » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:56 pm

Hello Guy
Could you tell us why Meadow Fritillary as I've been struggling with this species in the Picos de Europa and this one doesn't really show an oblique mark on the upper forewing. Please state other ID characteristics.

Many thanks
Paul
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Padfield
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Padfield » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:00 pm

Hi Paul. To be honest, I'm asking myself the same question! I answered from the field, viewing the picture on my iPhone, and didn't really think twice - it was just obviously a meadow fritillary. Looking at it on my computer, however, it seems to be a male, not a female, even though the colour scheme and general appearance look like female meadow.

These are the things that influenced my instinct, rightly or wrongly: the clear, uncluttered discal region of the hindwing; the even lunules down the outer margins of the forewings (not significantly bigger in s.3 or s.2); pd line weak, almost broken in s.4, the broad, dark, even marginal border; the general grid-like regularity of the butterfly.

The mark in s.1b is not particularly oblique, but this is a summer brood individual, and I have noticed more variation here in the summer.

I might, of course, be wrong. The only real alternatives, so far as I can see, are deione and varia. To my eye, it doesn't look at all like either.

Apologies for the earlier, sweeping ID, without comment! That's what happens when you browse the internet on an iPhone!! I'd be interested to hear anyone else's opinions.

Guy
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Roger Gibbons
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Roger Gibbons » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:46 pm

My first thought was parthenoides (Meadow) and I couldn't, like Guy, see any feasible alternatives.

The upf discal s1 mark - like so many quoted features, if it has it, then it is almost certainly parthenoides. But if near but not quite, it does not categorically preclude it, as there is always variation.

Here is one almost identical which I am sure is parthenoides. http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html ... s_24Jul15_

I saw parthenoides very close to this location last year as Medard (Jim) and I go to a lot of the same places.

If I'm wrong I'm in good company.

Roger

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petesmith
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby petesmith » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:49 pm

Paul,
I am no expert, but for what it's worth I agree with Guy on this, and pretty much for the same reasons - I certainly can't see this as being varia, having seen plenty in the field, and I can't see it as deione either. Did you have an alternative species in mind? I find that quite often the key diagnostic features of this fritillary group as mentioned in reference books can be unclear or missing and it is then a case of getting a "best fit", whilst cross referencing with locations/altitude/time of year.
This is why we all love the challenge of getting out and experiencing these beauties!
Best wishes

Pete
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Medard
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Medard » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:40 am

Thanks every one for your comments concerning my earlier post, for what its worth I was struck by the size and clear distinct markings, a very distinctive butterfly, after studying a great many pics I incline towards Meadow but doubt lingered could it be a Provence I asked myself.

Help with three more Fritillarys please.
No 1
My first thoughts False Heath Fritillary (Melitaea diamina) or could it possibly a Nickerl's Fritillary (Melitaea aurelia) moist meadow location
Near,Pontarlier,valley of the Drugeon, Doubs. 850 m.

No 2
Mountain Fritillary (Boloria napaea) or
Shepherd's Fritillary (Boloria pales)
Close to the Italian border 2,500m Col de Agnel,Haute Alps..

No 3
Not sure if this is a Grisons Fritillary (Melitaea varia)
above Molines valley de Champsaur,Haute Alps.1,250m
Attachments
JUY_1027 False Heath Fritillary (Melitaea diamina)  Reduced.jpg
JUY_1023 False Heath Fritillary (Melitaea diamina) 6x4_copy Reduced.jpg
JUY_0518_copy  Reduced.jpg
JUY_0511_copy  Reduced.jpg
JUY_0372 Grisons Fritillary (Melitaea varia)  2030 m._copy.jpg
JUY_0364 Grisons Fritillary (Melitaea varia) 2030 m._copy  Reduced.jpg
JUY_0379 Grisons Fritillary (Melitaea varia)  2030 m._copy  Reduced.jpg

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Padfield
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Padfield » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:09 am

Hi again.

Your first is definitely diamina (false heath). The underside is conclusive - the dark points in the orange lunules - and the upperside too, though in ways less easy to describe. It's worth noting that the slightly yellow marginal line often said to be characteristic of aurelia is only useful when absent (and by its being less dark than in britomartis). Both athalia and diamina frequently have a yellow marginal line.

The second is napaea (mountain fritillary). Males of this species can be tricky to distinguish from shepherd's but not in this case. Different people seem to use different methods for these species (see countless postings over the years!). Here, all methods will point to the same conclusion, I think.

The third is varia (Grisons fritillary).

Guy
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Roger Gibbons
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Roger Gibbons » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:59 am

Guy, re #3 did you notice that the altitude was 1250m? I agree that it does look rather like varia but I would find it extremely unlikely that it could be at this altitude. Also, I have visited Molines-en-Champsaur quite a few times (and I believe it might have been me that suggested this location to Medard) and, while it is very rich in species, it is way too low for the altitude specialists.

My feeling is that we have another perfidious parthenoides (Meadow). I know it flies in the valley as I have records of seeing it at several spots in the valley, including on 8 July 2016.

Roger

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Padfield
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Padfield » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:17 am

Ah! No, I didn't notice the height. I took it to be with the napaea. I completely agree - it is yet another parthenoides!

Guy
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Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Paul Wetton » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:45 pm

Thanks to Guy Roger and Pete for adding more to this thread and giving some ID help on these. I think I'll just have to post some pictures of the Fritillaries I saw in the Picos de Europa and ask for ID help as well.

Thanks All
Cheers Paul
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Medard
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Medard » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:30 am

APR_7694Apollo (Parnassius apollo)_copy.jpg
APR_6464 Sloe Hairstreak (Satyrium acaciae)_copy.jpg
JUY_0053 Eros Blue (Polyommatus eros) 1750 m._copy redued.jpg
Help please.
One blue, one Hairstreak and one to admire.
Is this an Eros Blue (Polyommatus eros) 1750 m above Ristolas, Haute Alps
I have limited experience of high altitude species.
Hairstreak photo taken in the department of Lot.Sloe Hairstreak (Satyrium acaciae) ?
Apollo (Parnassius apollo) The first I have seen with a yellow markings at the base of the hind wings, is this unusual ? a very beautiful specimen.

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David M
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby David M » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:02 am

I would agree that the yellow markings on your Apollo are unusual, Medard. I've never seen that before.

I'm sure your Hairstreak is a Sloe and your Blue certainly looks to be a decent bet for Eros, although I'll wait for Guy and/or Roger to pronounce definitively.

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Padfield
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Padfield » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:30 am

I agree with all the IDs.

The Apollo is certainly striking. It would be interesting to know if this individual was exceptional or if most of the Apollos there looked something like this. There are many (too many) named subspecies and forms of Apollo. The one from the Picos is ardanazi. Leraut describes this as having moderately developed spots and the female as being 'smoky' - which yours is. He only illustrates a male and it lacks the yellow centres to those spots. I have seen illustrated forms with yellow there or red there. I don't think I've ever seen a living Apollo with quite such strong colouring in those spots.

Guy
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Medard
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Medard » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:37 am

I have checked other photos of Apollo taken at the same location,no others show the same markings as the photo submitted.
An Apollo from the same location the star of a video that can be seen on the link below.

http://jamesgibbs6929.zenfolio.com/p577876181#h91130cd7
APR_7496 Reduced.jpg


Some Erebia known and unknown for ID can some one help please.

The first Mnestra's Ringlet (Erebia mnestra) ? Close to the Italian border 2,500m Col de Agnel,Haute Alps..
Second Arran Brown (Erebia ligea) ? Molines valley de Champsaur,Haute Alps.1,250m
Third Common Brassy Ringlet (Erebia cassioides) ? Col de l'Izoard,France.
The remainder Molines valley de Champsaur,Haute Alps.1,250m
Attachments
JUY_0532Mnestra's Ringlet (Erebia mnestra) Reduced.jpg
Reduced.jpg
JUY_9933 Common Brassy Ringlet (Erebia cassioides) Reduced.jpg
JUY_0264 Reduced.jpg
JUY_0403 Scotch Argus (Erebia  Reduced.jpg
JUY_0371 Scotch Argus (Erebia aethiops) Reduced.jpg
JUY_0384 Scotch Argus (Erebia aethiops) Reduced.jpg

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Roger Gibbons
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Roger Gibbons » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:49 pm

Jim, I would say that your first Erebia is False Mnestra (E. aethiopella), not only because it looks right, but also because aethiopella flies at that location and I don't believe mnestra does.

A quick look suggests your other Erebia are euryale (#4 and #6) and aethiops (#5 and #7).

That was a seriously strange Apollo! I have seen a few, but never one like that.

Roger

Medard
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Re: Fritillary ID please

Postby Medard » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:35 pm

Tidying up some old files of Apollos taken in 19-07-2014 at La Chapelle-en-Valgaudémar another Apollo with yellow markings similar to the previous photo posted caught my eye, Valgaudémar is the next valley over the mountains from the Valley of Champsaur,could it be that this is after all a localized variation of Apollo ?
Photo taken at 1146 m.
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JUL_5465 Apollo (Parnassius apollo).jpg


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