Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Discussion forum for anything that doesn't fit elsewhere!
User avatar
Butterflysaurus rex
Posts: 650
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:34 am

Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Butterflysaurus rex » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:45 pm

I just came across yet another bit of depressing news, some selfish piece of work has taken some Swallowtail larvae from the Norfolk Broads.

http://www.discoverwildlife.com/news/ra ... broads?utm

During the spring I stumbled upon a 'netter' up to no good twice in my local woods. I'm sure this sort of thing goes on quite a bit but recently I've noticed a sharp rise in reports. Is this due to more vigilance on our part? Or is this activity becoming more prevalent?

With the excellence of digital photography these days it's odd that some individuals still persist with this outmoded pursuit. Stunning images are freely available on the internet or in books.
There are more photos of ab's than you could hope to see in a lifetime within the pages of this - and other websites.

I suppose it's human nature, there are still some 'sorry excuses' out there that want to shoot Tigers, Elephants and so on.

Chris Speke
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Chris Speke » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:18 pm

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments regarding the removal of P Macheon larvae from an environment of precarious existence. I however, I take exception to your negative view of us ' netters' . I have used a net for over 50 years and it is now more use to me , given the advancing years. I can take a butterfly for id purposes without the need to pray it will land for a photo. I find it most useful for id ing pearl and small pearl bordered Frits, small and Essex skippers and hoping that a dark green frit may turn out to be a high brown.

User avatar
Goldie M
Posts: 2931
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Goldie M » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:44 pm

If you net and then let the Butterfly go that's fine but when people start sticking pins in the Butterflies that's another matter :x Goldie :x

User avatar
Pete Eeles
Administrator & Stock Contributor
Administrator & Stock Contributor
Posts: 6088
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:10 pm
Location: Thatcham, Berkshire
Contact:

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Pete Eeles » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:49 pm

Whoever took the Milk-parsley plants from a nature reserve is an idiot! Either grow them, buy them, or get them from somewhere else! As for taking livestock ... well ... that's just illegal too.

Regarding the use of nets, a subject that rears its head every now again, we should not always assume that someone with a net is up to no good, unless they're on a site that explicitly bans their use.

Cheers,

- Pete

User avatar
David M
Posts: 7422
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:17 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby David M » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:27 pm

Yes, nets aren't always to be condemned (I often briefly trap butterflies in a small, clear, cylindrical vial) but one has to be careful in the UK; for instance, catching the protected High Brown Fritillary is an offence unless you have permission.

User avatar
Butterflysaurus rex
Posts: 650
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:34 am

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Butterflysaurus rex » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:29 pm

Chris Speke wrote:I agree wholeheartedly with your comments regarding the removal of P Macheon larvae from an environment of precarious existence. I however, I take exception to your negative view of us ' netters' . I have used a net for over 50 years and it is now more use to me , given the advancing years.

Hi Chris, in my post I clearly mentioned my personal experience of a "netter" who was up to no good. On the second occasion the person in question was caught in the act by myself and Group of BC members in a very sensitive re-introduction area. How could I or anyone else object to 'benign netting' for identification purposes? No I think I made it quite clear, I was referring to the illegal and unnecessary collecting of butterflies or larvae for personal collections. Not for identification or scientific purposes.

My main question was pertaining to the 'apparent' rise of illegal activities.

User avatar
Goldie M
Posts: 2931
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Goldie M » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:25 am

Yesterday I was at Temple Ewell NR and saw a man there with a net, I wonder if he thought like I did that may be the Silver Spotted Skipper were out early, he walked with the net behind his back.
I can't help it when I see people with nets, they may be okay but it does make one suspicious. Goldie :?:

User avatar
Butterflysaurus rex
Posts: 650
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:34 am

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Butterflysaurus rex » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:49 pm

Goldie M wrote:Yesterday I was at Temple Ewell NR and saw a man there with a net, I wonder if he thought like I did that may be the Silver Spotted Skipper were out early, he walked with the net behind his back.
I can't help it when I see people with nets, they may be okay but it does make one suspicious. Goldie :?:

Hi Goldie, it's easy to see how a few "bad eggs" have unfairly given innocent people carrying nets a bad reputation. The behaviour of certain unscrupulous individuals can be a dead giveaway. The person I saw with a net practically ran away from me when I approached him. Not an action you would expect from a researcher, or permit holder with lawful permission to catch endangered butterflies. perhaps my concerns are unfounded, maybe my personal experience coupled with a perceived increase in news reports might be nothing more than coincidence? My intended question wasn't really about netters but the apparent increase in unlawful collecting.

User avatar
Goldie M
Posts: 2931
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Goldie M » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:47 pm

I was going to approach the man yesterday but my Husband said not too, he wasn't carrying a camera which made me more suspicious, I thought if I mentioned it on UKB people who visited Temple Ewell could keep a look out for him.
I think you only said what most of our thinking rex, Goldie :D

User avatar
Mark Colvin
Moderator & Stock Contributor
Moderator & Stock Contributor
Posts: 988
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:13 am
Location: West Sussex

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Mark Colvin » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:48 am

Please note:

Just because someone is carrying and using a net does not make them a criminal, even on a nature reserve, if prior permission has been sought, justified by a valid research-based reason, and thereafter granted by the landowner or agency responsible for the site. So let us not automatically assume that net = bad person, more often than not it doesn’t and I know of many people, including myself, who occasionally use a net for various aspects of invertebrate study.

I have often seen nets used by transect walkers and also on Butterfly Conservation walks; their use allowing for detailed examination and identification of specimens, after all what is a Smessex Skipper? I have often used a net on guided walks to show those less mobile amongst us butterflies they might not have seen. The pleasure and learning opportunity this provides far outweighing the short period of captivity prior to release.

It pays to fully understand the potential reasons for someone carrying a net and/or collecting samples rather than simply jumping to the wrong conclusions. We should of course be alert and be prepared to question or note any actions that we witness by individuals who may appear to be acting outside of the law.

More at:

http://markcolvin.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/entomological-collections.html
http://www.royensoc.co.uk/InvLink/Index.html
http://www.royensoc.co.uk/InvLink/documents/Collecting%20Code%20(2002).pdf

Kip
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:29 pm

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Kip » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:10 pm

Interesting... can anyone think of a really good reason for someone to carry a net in THIS country, given that an hour of reading this site should enable anyone to ID all British butterflies.... there's research.... and ?????? I know people catch, cool, position and photograph specimens which I personally think to be devaluing and potentially over-intrusive towards fragile insects. :(

Ok, there's our Wood White/s but is examining their genitalia a step too far... do we really need ID THAT much. Skippers... take photos and ID in retrospect, why not, all our phones have cameras these days? :?

Abroad, things are very different.. there are multiple similar species, often on difficult terrain and I totally accept the use of nets for ID purposes ( which I appreciate, is big of me!! :roll: ). Without that though, many of us would never enjoy the fascination of seeing a photo of Ratzer's or Warrens etc etc. :D

Having said that much, anyone can obviously do as they like... but if ALL the good people among us ceased using nets in this country without written permission from the authorities, then the few that collect specimens without research needs would really stand out. :?

I do appreciate there will be many who disagree on what is a sensitive matter. The above is solely my personal humble opinion for what little it is worth, and I totally accept the right of anyone to their own different opinions and habits. I hope no-one takes offence to the above.. there was absolutely none intended to anybody. :D
Last edited by Kip on Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
More pics on http://ptkbutterflies.wixsite.com/photo-art - should you wish to look, I hope you like the site..

CallumMac
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby CallumMac » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:20 pm

Hi all, I'm new on here - be kind to me!

I'm a researcher at a UK university and I've been doing quite a lot of netting up and down the country this summer as part of a study into the genetics of British butterflies, including on some sensitive sites. Of course, I always have proper permissions arranged in advance and I almost always remember to carry the permit with me - if not, a quick flick through the emails on my iPhone does the trick!

However, I've been very surprised - disappointed even - at how rarely I'm approached by passers-by when I'm netting, even on nature reserves. I would much rather be asked outright what I'm up to, and given the opportunity to explain the study and show the permit, than be observed covertly and reported to the land manager. It gives me a chance to defend myself from suspicion, and often to then discuss my study with interesting folk who have much better knowledge of the local butterflies than I do!

I do carry a camera, but when I'm actively netting for the study (i.e. doing my paid job!), it stays in my backpack. I'm not convinced this is a reliable 'tell' for whether somebody is netting as part of a research study (or another legitimate reason) or not.

I've also had a couple of phone calls from land managers, asking whether I was on their site on a particular day because somebody had reported a 'netter' to them, when in fact I had been elsewhere in the country. If these people had been approached then it would have become quite obvious that they weren't me - at which point it might have been possible to deal with them. (P.S. I wasn't at Temple Ewell last week, either!).

DaveO'B
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:32 pm
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby DaveO'B » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:35 am

I was at Smardale Gill earlier this week where I spotted two people netting Scotch Argus. I went across and politely asked why they were netting them. It was a postgrad student and her assistant carrying out a mark-release-recapture project as part of her Masters degree, "Population ecology & genetics of the Scotch Argus butterfly", at Lancaster University. She told me that towards the end of the flight season when the butterflies should have reproduced, she'd taking specimens for genetic analysis to determine the degree of variation/inbreeding in the colony. The aim of the research is to hopefully re-introduce the butterfly into its former range.

I also told the student why I'd asked her what she was doing, and she replied that some people had asked and she'd been happy to explain why she was catching butterflies, but others had just glared at her and said "I hope you're going to let that go!"

I also got a photo of "butterfly no.2", harassing a mating pair!

ImageScotch Argus pair 7682b by Dave O'B, on Flickr

Dave

User avatar
David M
Posts: 7422
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:17 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby David M » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:57 pm

DaveO'B wrote:The aim of the research is to hopefully re-introduce the butterfly into its former range.


Good luck to them. I've always been confused as to why Scotch Argus is present at only two sites in England, when there is seemingly highly suitable habitat for them elsewhere in the immediate environs.

I wish these people all the best with their research.

User avatar
Goldie M
Posts: 2931
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Goldie M » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:20 pm

When i was at Arnside last week a man with a net( approached us )and I asked him, "why the net," He said he was looking for fritillaries and the only way he could tell them apart was to net them, he also said he'd a permit and we could check it.

Because he approached us we didn't look at the permit , the man had obviously nothing to hide.

it's okay to say we should approach people and ask what their doing with a net, in this day and age it's not always the thing to do with out getting a mouth full of abuse Which, i may add as happened, that's one of the reasons whilst at Temple Ewell we didn't ask the man we saw a couple of weeks ago what he was doing.Goldie :)

Chris Speke
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Another sad case - is this on the rise?

Postby Chris Speke » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:04 pm

If you are in the Queens Park area of Chester at the moment and you spot me in my garden wielding my trusty net, please do not abuse me. I have been trying to capture for id purposes, what must be a brown hairstreak which appears so infrequently that I have misspent four or five hours this week in the hope of including it in The Great Butterfly count. I have never seen a brown hairstreak anywhere else, but I can assure you all that this critter is a very difficult customer ; netting it is my only hope of a result


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 0 guests