Clouded Yellows..............

[CJB]

In French Alps.
Good morning UKB'ers,
Having just cycled 300 miles across the Alps for Help For Heroes last week (casually dropped in), I managed to steal a bit of time before the start to wander up the mountain. There were Clouded Yellows and Helice(?), plus two fritillaries which I am keen to have identified but I think are Small PBF and HBF??? Technically they can't be firsts for me as they are not on UK soil, but I did capture them on my mobile!
Flutter on!
CJB

[Paul Wetton]

On first impression the frits look like Dark Green and High Brown. Both look like Argynnis species. The first has a very straight row of spots across the forewing excluding the first or outer spot. The second has a slightly inwardly displaced third spot (from the outer edge of the wing) and the hind edge of the forewing looks concave indicating High Brown. I won't comment on the Clouded Yellows as I have trouble with these but you're probably correct with your IDs.

All the best.

[CJB]

Thank you Paul!
Much appreciated.
Flutter on!
CJB

[David M]

I'd agree with Paul regarding the Frits, especially the High Brown. The other has the look of Dark Green but the black markings are nonetheless a bit scantier than I am used to seeing. The latter Pierid is too dark to be anything other than Clouded Yellow but the other could easily be Berger's or Pale.

[CJB]

Thank you David!
I was trying to read numbers off the wing which is what I have seen reported on this site when referring to SPBF and PBF.
To me it looks like there is a '135' on the fore-wing or even '356', but I can't remember what number was eluded to previously!
I would be interested to know what the paler of the two yellows is. They were about in equal numbers to the clouded.
Flutter on!
CJB

[David M]

Thank you David!
I was trying to read numbers off the wing which is what I have seen reported on this site when referring to SPBF and PBF.
To me it looks like there is a '135' on the fore-wing or even '356', but I can't remember what number was eluded to previously!
I would be interested to know what the paler of the two yellows is. They were about in equal numbers to the clouded.
Flutter on!
CJB

Dark Green and High Brown Fritillaries are much larger than Pearl and Small Pearl Bordered. Generally, the undersides provide the definitive identification but there are subtle differences on the uppersides too.

Regarding the Yellows, things are a bit more complicated as they always rest wings closed. I think Guy Padfield knows a trick to separate Pale from Berger's but I certainly wouldn't be able to distinguish between them. In addition, the female helice version of Clouded Yellow looks very similar to both these species and if I'm honest I think I'd need to catch them in a net to stand a chance of positively identifying them.

[Pete Eeles]

Has Niobe Fritillary for the first individual been ruled out? If so, I'd like to know why

Cheers,

- Pete

[David M]

Has Niobe Fritillary for the first individual been ruled out? If so, I'd like to know why

Could well be Niobe, Pete. I'd be hard pressed to say on upperwing evidence alone though.

[CJB]

Thank you for your responses David and Pete.
I await your conclusions!
Flutter on!
CJB

[Paul Wetton]

Niobe Frit has the third spot from the wing edge displaced inwards same as HBF. I'll stick with DGF for this one.

[Pete Eeles]

Then we'll have to wait for an adjudication The niobe shots I've seen are a right mixed bag with that 3rd spot being inconclusive.

I was going on the convex (not concave) shape of the forewing.

Where's Padders?

Cheers,

- Pete

[Padfield]

I'll gladly chip in - though not as adjudicator! And sorry for not doing so earlier. For various reasons this is an exceptionally busy term.

I think this upperside is compatible with either niobe or aglaja but I incline strongly towards niobe. The upper three pd spots, which others have mentioned, while not conclusive, are typically more or less colinear in aglaja but make an obtuse angle in niobe, as in this butterfly. The line itself tends to descend broadly parallel to the margin in aglaja but to migrate basally in niobe, as here. None of this is absolute or constant across the range but it does make me prefer niobe in this instance. As well as this, the general appearance fits niobe very well, with rather light markings (they can be extremely heavy in niobe, of course, which is a very variable species, but in my experience are rarely this light in aglaja). The wing shape in both species is typically slightly convex, as distinct from being slightly concave in adippe - certainly, the wing shape here fits niobe.

I think this is a male but no sex brands are really visible here, unfortunately. Both species can have very weak sex brands on occasion so I don't think any conclusions can be drawn from the fact none can be seen.

Guy

[Pete Eeles]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Guy. A few more diagnostics to throw into the mix!

Cheers,

- Pete

[MikeOxon]

Where's Padders?

You just had to rub the magic lamp

Mike

[David M]

Where's Padders?

You just had to rub the magic lamp

Mike

Quite right too.

Guy seems to have an instinct that the rest of us can only dream of.

[Padfield]

I'm flattered by the attention ... but I am very often wrong and have learnt a lot from reading others' observations on this site! I'm quite happy to be overruled in this or any case.

I also find that an instinct in the field doesn't always translate into an instinct for identifying from photos. Sometimes, when I've stared at the same picture for a while I stop being able to see it with an intuitive eye, as when you repeat a word until it becomes meaningless ('semantic satiation'). In the field, the same species would be identified without reflection in a glance.

Guy

[Roger Gibbons]

I would be inclined to go for niobe. The hindwing arch-shaped submarginal marks are quite thin which strongly points to niobe, whereas in aglaja they are usually much thicker, almost appearing solid. There is variation, as usual, but this does seem reasonably consistent.

I am not entirely convinced that it is a male; the body shape suggest male but the body length suggests female (the male body length seems noticeably and consistently longer). The apparent absence of any sex brands suggests male, but this is unclear and would be a conclusive indicator for adippe where the male sex brands are unmistakeably thick. The markings are generally quite heavy for niobe which also suggests female, and it seems almost identical to this one which I am 100% certain is niobe:

http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html ... ar_28May07

[CJB]

Wow UK B'ers, thank you for all the responses.
I bumped into Sussex Kipper today at Steyning in search of BHS, who said he thought it was a niobe and a HBF.
Thank you for all your thoughts!
Flutter on!
CJB